Sales Objectives: How to improve sales performance (Recorded Live Session)
The objection issue
Colby responds to a question asked by Dennis about how to handle objections, especially for newcomers into this industry. The key is to discover where you find the objection and whether you have encountered it or not. Colby talks about encountering an objection and why some people refuse to talk about it for reasons like the competitor already does it or if you talk about it then you’ll get a budget option so it’s better to keep quiet about these objections.
Nick goes on to talk about fishing for objections which sounds dangerous like looking for trouble but he reveals that objections can exist even if we don’t identify them. By doing so, we can talk and help the customer overcome these roadblocks. Sales is a field where it is the salesperson and customer against their problems.
Nick breaks the misconception about what a good salesperson is like. They’re not always bold, good looking and quick with their solutions. A good salesperson talks to their customers like real people about their real problems and it’s perfectly alright if you didn’t understand their issue the first time, in fact, by asking the customer to repeat themselves, we seem more human and therefore more able to connect with the customer.
One big mistake which Nick sees young salespeople make is defending their prices as soon as it’s challenged. By doing this, we’re validating their objection. A salesperson’s job is to justify why their product is worth that price tag. If the price objection continues, then we should reposition the conversation according to the customer’s needs.
This brief podcast cracks open the world of sales and delivers some great advice on how to be a good salesperson. The field of sales doesn’t just require marketing skills but also psychology and people skills. Solely addressing and proposing a solution to a problem will not guarantee you will make the sale. Connecting on an emotional level with your customer who is also a living breathing human will make the proposed solution more impactful because the customer will feel like you really care for them.
Access the complete transcript here 👇
This meeting is being recorded in Toronto Dennis is from? Toronto, I grew up across lake Ontario in Rochester new york and I see we have someone from L. A. Which is where I am now the boom. I'm already talking about myself, which I love to do when people ask you where you're from, you know? Okay, so when people ask me where I'm from, I always get funded by my girlfriend because I have like the same sort of track in the way that I, so I grew up in Rochester new york and when I say that to people on the west coast, they're like, oh yeah, I love Manhattan. Like Brooklyn, like they asked me about new york city and I'm like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. I legitimately grew up closer to Cleveland than I did to New York City. I've been to New York City five times in my entire life. And people like if they, if they have never really like been into Rochester, they don't get it. They don't realize that new york city is really, really big. It's like the equivalent of saying, oh I live in L. A. And someone being like, yeah, you know, I've got family in sacramento and I'm like, yeah, it's a whole thing. The whole thing so coldly being from, are you from boston and you probably are pretty hard living in boston. Yeah. I actually grew up in Vermont, which is the weird sort of accent having an accent. Um but every once in a while, the boston accent comes out. That's funny Jason. What about you? Where are you? Where are you from? I feel like you've lived in multiple cities in the time that I've known you from Oregon. Okay, so very lower left hand corner of Oregon as far as south west as you can go. We've got a couple of oregonians in here and in fact, pelican Bay State penitentiary where they house all the really intense like was that a big draw for you, you know, to move to that town, Your tourist attraction. Yeah, let's let's get the party started. You guys were a couple of minutes after um Okay, I'm super excited for the topic. Today we're gonna talk about objection handling specifically in the sales context and just to introduce our guest real quick uh this is not the first time we've done a webinar together, but Nick Sadowsky, he's an account executive at time piping and also co host of one of my favorite sales podcast, Nick Good to have you, my man and we have Colby Martino senior manager of enterprise and strategic sales at zoom info and correctly from Ron Colby that includes some of the zoom info products and also the chorus product line as well? Good question. So we've grown so quickly that um you know, I'm essentially, I head up what we call our emerging products. So it's basically everything that's non core. You know, that prospecting sells os platform. I've been with the company for over five years, pretty all of our acquisitions and murders. So very familiar with sort of the whole thing. Very cool. Okay, we're gonna jump straight to it, you guys. So a couple a couple of things before we get started because I know I'm gonna get asked this hundreds of times nick. Thanks for hopping in the chat there. Yes, the webinar is going to be recorded. You'll get sent to replay all of that kind of good stuff. Number two is if you've been on a webinar with myself or with nick before or any of the other stuff that we've done, You know, I like to be super interactive. So if questions pop up, if you could, since we have um if you could use the Q and a button at the bottom of zoom here, drop your questions in there, we'll try to get to as many as we can. Um I want to start with, let's talk about the mindset and the approach behind objections. Okay, so I'll start with you Colby. Um how do you think about objections because I think a lot of the that people that might come to a webinar like this are looking for the best ways to handle objections and all that kind of stuff with the reps that you work with and having done this yourself a ton. How do you, what's your mindset around objections? How do you think about approaching them? Yeah, good, good question. Um, I also hate when people say good question. I don't know why I just defaulted to that. Like, you're gonna say that's a dumb question. Um but yeah, I think, I think there's sort of two different different things here. Um there's there's your objections that you're going to come across throughout your sales process, right? And then there's the objection that comes across when you're trying to close the deal. And I think fundamentally the objection that comes across me trying to close the deal, it's really more of a reflection of of a failure to uncover the objection before that point. So, I like to preach a lot about, you know, um, the concept of radical candor and and soliciting and fishing for those objections early and often, Right? So we can we can attack them at that point. We can address them and we'll I'm sure talk about ways that we do that. Um, but in terms of throughout the sales process, I want to find them. I want to bring them up. Um and then there's a sort of different approach if it comes up at the end. You know, you can't always be perfect. Sometimes there's a last minute thing we can talk about that too. So when we did some prep for this, I feel like this is pretty counterintuitive thinking because I don't know, let me know. Give me I guess in the chat if you ever think like this is do you ever come across the time for those of you watching this, where you're maybe apprehensive to bring something up because you know that maybe your competitor does it and you don't uh maybe you know that they're likely to give you a budget objection. So you end up not talking about it at all and you avoid talking about the topic hoping that it just won't come up and that they won't think about it. Let me know in the chat yes or no. Do you ever catch yourself if you're being honest, avoiding bringing up certain things where you don't feel confident about what the answer is and it might hurt you actually by digging into it. Okay, so we're not alone. So nick you talk about something. This might have been a Charles mobile thing too, you'll have to correct me. But you brought something up around like looking for trouble and it's the same kind of premise here. So when you think about objections and fishing for them and sussing them out really, can you tell us a little bit more about your thinking behind them, why you want to do that as a seller. My intent is not to kill the deal or be like you shouldn't buy this thing because of X. But I believe if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there, that it indeed makes a sound. And I also believe that if an objection is not voiced it still can exist. And my job as a salesperson is to help the customer overcome their concerns. Or there worries about buying my thing or moving forward with the thing. Um and so I want them to voice their concerns and hesitations because an objection that is invoiced, it's impossible to handle. It still makes a noise in their head like three in the forest analogy. So yeah, what I want to do is if I know that that concern exists where I know it's going to come up. I want to proactively bring that thing up. There's two reasons. One if I proactively bring it up, I can sort of set the board as to like framing the objection for them to my job as a salesperson is to help the customer navigate the we're in a bad place today. I want to get to a better place in the future. And part of navigating that process is there's going to be hesitations and objections for their entire organization. I sell to law firms. And one of the big things that law firms have concerned around is like security and so I might be working with a particular partner at a law firm. And I know that for that person to get the deal done we're probably gonna have to have a meeting with like I. T. Security and go through like a rigorous security process, you better believe like I'm bringing that up. I'm saying hey like most law firms I worked with like they have some concerns around the security of our thing and like how we manage the I. T. Side of things. Like do you feel like that's something that your I. T. Director is going to want to have a conversation with us around. The other thing I'm doing there is I'm also proposing a solution to set objection. I know I'm rambling at you a lot here Jason but the idea is if I present the objection, if I look for trouble I can set the board in terms of how the objection is framed. I'm coming across as a super proactive salesperson to help them and I have the ability to propose the solution like right there, boom objection is handled or really addressed. I don't like the word handled by the way. So nick do you find that when you proactively bring up stuff sometimes you get a little chuckle or smile because the prospects like yeah I actually was thinking about that. Um frequently I one of my favorite phrases like if I can sort of sense hesitation from the other person um I love and this is another Charles Muhlbauer one. Like if you feel like somebody has a concern around something, I subscribe to the belief. If you sense it, say it, if I can sense hesitation from Colby. If I can get the feeling like he's not crazy around the analytics dashboards that I'm doubling him right now. I should call that out. I should say, Hey Colby, like I'm kind of getting the sense that you're not crazy about these analytics dashboards. I'm showing you right now. Am I totally off with that. And what I'm doing here is like, I sense it, I call it out in a polite way. I'm not like, you must hate this awkward. I'm showing you call me. I'm saying, hey, I'm in the sense you're not crazy about this. One or two things is gonna happen. There one Kobe is going to say, hey, you know what, nick? You're right. I don't like this because it doesn't have X and I need to see X. Well, boom now because he's voiced that objection or concern, I have a way that I can actually address it and maybe just, I need to go to the other stream that I wasn't planning on showing him in that demo. And so unless I get him to voice his hesitation, I cannot address it. The other outcome might be, he says no, actually sorry. I just haven't had enough coffee today. I'm having a rough day and now you can sort of quell your fears and be like, okay. Like, but if you are the salesperson who just shuts their eyes and it's like, everything is great until the customer hits me with an objection. You've lost your making them do the work, your job is to do the work for the customer. Kevin said, Nick has a striking, striking resemblance to Gary B and the way he communicates, I'm also very, very short. So I've got two things so right here and I can make fun of that because I'm a bald guy. Nick, I love what you said since it's a it Colby, you mentioned something, did you say radical candor? Is that what you brought up earlier? Was that the Yeah, absolutely. And I think this is, so I try and make things really, really simple, right? Like everybody who sits down, um whatever sales job you've ever had ideally probably writing down a bunch of, hey, these are all the objections. These are my talking points. These are my notes. This is what I'm going to remember to do. And you've got like a desk full of sticky notes. But like, ultimately when you get onto the phone, you have to drive a conversation, you have to, you know, think about that next step. You have to intake information. Um And you also have to kind of see two mixed point. What how is that information being being accepted? So to sit there and accept the, you're just not gonna do that. So I try and break it down for my reps and anybody that I work with. Um let's make it super simple, like let's have super simple frameworks that we can rely on. Um So, nick to your point radical Canada, right? Um you guys can find a way that that it makes it, you know, more palatable to ask, but what you want to do is almost like audit that conversation, Hey, nick, it feels like you're like kind of distracted right now. Am I, am I getting that right? And if we use terms like it feels like, or it seems like, or it sounds like I can posit something without accusing you love it. And it's going to allow me to build trust with you and if we set that radical candor up up front and I've set that expectation um Yeah, and some of you guys have seen in the chat chris boss. Absolutely. That guys might, you know, never split the difference is our sales bible here, but we want to make it super, super easy for people to to voice their concerns, create an environment in which it's okay for them to voice their concerns and you can actually model that out, buying. Labeling something, even if it's not there, that's the trick to, so if we're having that initial conversation and you're feeling like they're not brought in, tell them that, and then I might be totally overreacting to this and I'm just a really sensitive sales guy, but it kinda seems like you're not paying attention, is this not what you were looking for? And they might be like, oh yeah, you know what, like, I'm trying to figure out what I'm ordering for lunch. I've literally had a dude say, I'm trying to figure out what I'm ordering for lunch and I'll just be like, hey, like go, you should totally do that, what are you thinking? And then we have that human moment he does that, he moves on and then we're back and then we joke about it for the rest of the relationship. Yeah, I love that. I think a big part of this radical candor piece too, if you're watching this and you're thinking, oh God, that sounds a little scary. It requires a little bit of courage if you've never done it before when I was first doing that kind of approach where I'm like, you know what, screw it dude, I'm gonna be really candid with people on here and if I'm confused as a salesperson when they're trying to share with me what they're trying to accomplish that's actually just as much on the prospect as it is on me, you know what I mean? So it's like, it's okay to, hey, this could be totally, yeah, I could be misreading this, but I'm kind of confused. I'm having trouble following exactly where we're going here, um can we take a time out real quick? Like having a really human moment like that and I think having the courage to view that your heart will be racing when you do these kind of things. But I would rather have a real conversation with someone and have a deal get disqualified early than to have this surface level talk the entire time and for a conversation to go nowhere and then you get three months into a sales process and a sales cycle and then we don't close the deal because of stuff. I could have easily gotten out in the first or second conversation when I first started selling, I would lose a lot of sleep. I would wake up in the middle of the night and I start thinking about deals in my pipeline and I would think of reasons like why some deals wouldn't come in there. Like I'm worried about this thing with customer x and I'm worried about this thing with customer why and like they're gonna be laying up at night stressing about these things and I would hold onto that for so so long. And finally I was like, this, this kind of stinks, this isn't very fun. And so I just started asking customers about this. Like, I would be like, hey, I woke up in the middle of the night last night and I was thinking like we haven't had a conversation around like the data analytics dashboard demo that we did a couple weeks ago. Like did we miss the mark with that and you wouldn't believe customers like they open up so much more and I sleep so much better at night now. So like what you have to do is take all the like the trash and the worry of the concern that's in your head and articulate it to the customer and that helps you both get to a place of much much better clarity. You're not this like happy go lucky salesperson who's just gonna like storm through it and pretend everything is fine. The other thing you talk about with courage Jason is I think most sales people have this picture in their head of what a great salesperson is and they're confident and good looking and they've got all this bravado and like none of those things and so um actually the best sales people I think are thoughtful and um sometimes like cautious or skeptical and so like you don't have to be the salesperson who just like storms through and always has the answer. Sometimes you might need to ask the same question twice because you didn't understand it the first time Duncan. No, it was not a dive in feet process, it was like the first time I did it, it felt good but it sort of took me some time. But um my commitment would be like, if you don't understand something, ask the customer or call that out with the customer and you're not going to come across as an idiot. You're actually gonna get way way better discovery and learning from them than you would if you like pretended that you understood them right away every single time. Which never happens in any human relationship. And we lost Colby. He texted me, he's gonna come back his computer shut off. For some reason. One big thing to you guys, your secret weapon is to smile, bring some levity to the conversation any time I have to ask something really hard. I put a big smile on my face. Mhm nick I've got to get in the sense that you're not really seeing the value here and you've looked into X, Y. Z. Trainer and they're just giving you some stuff that that I haven't presented my way off here or is there something there for us to talk about? Like put a big smile on your face anytime you got to do something that's weird or confrontational. I want to be disarming as possible if you got dimples, I want them to see it. You know what I mean? So let's talk about. So we've kind of talked about the approach behind this and the mindset behind it. Let's start getting tactical with some of the objections. Could you guys in the chat with me? And again this is strictly sales process types of objections. What objections do you get most throughout the sales process or what tends to surprise you at the end? So we could talk pricing, we could talk budget timing, let me know in the chat and then we'll pick a couple here to focus on what do you get actually the most nick? Where do you find that your prospects tend to have the most resistance? Um, so right now I sell a tool for attorneys to basically tracks all of the work that they do and it builds a outline of their day to help them do their time sheet for billing. And it's a difference. Like most attorneys just write down their time on a piece of paper and it's a really, really straightforward process. This is a tool that sort of like tracks their work and assists them. And so I get concerns around like big Brother, like, oh, it's spying on, on my attorneys. They might push back on that. I have, I have pushed back on like, well that's different than the workflow that I have today. I've actually gotten that many, many times in my sales career is like the way that the job gets done is different using the technology than the way that it is today. Um, I think that's what comes up a lot, a lot, a lot and I can talk to you about how I address those concerns, but I'm looking, we've got a lot of really good ones in. Um, in the chat. What's up Kobe back. Such a classic demo experience to Yeah, I was just in the audience, I was pulling the audience Kobe on, just kind of what objections they tend to run across the most. I think the first one we should talk about is price, you guys price and budget and let's really impact this one because that's the one I see it a lot and it's also the one that I get asked most about two. So pricing, I'll start with you Carly with the zoom info products and the Chorus Ai and all that stuff that you guys are doing. How do you think about pricing in budget? Yeah, good, good question. So we are, you know, I did it again, see the good question um we we already premium provider in the space. Right? So we are we are generally the most expensive, um which puts us in a position where we sort of always need to to justify the cost. Um One of the challenges that I think people get into, especially when they see um um that sort of objection that pricing objection is they're defending it immediately, right? You're not, your job is not to defend your product or defend your price. Your job is to help them understand the value that's associated with your solution, which will then justify the outlay of capital or expense. So what you've done is by immediately defending is one you've you've sort of validated right? That you're you are too expensive And to, you put this at an adversarial type of conversation when really, what we need to do is we, um, we need to sort of re position that conversation. It's not me against you. It's you and your buyer against the problem. Right? So if you can reframe that, then you guys can have a really candid and open conversation. Now one of the ways that I go about getting ahead of that conversation, if someone objects to price at the end of the sales cycle, there's two things one you guys have done a terrible job running your sales cycle to, you haven't actually provided enough value to justify it. Right? So price in the absence of value doesn't matter. So what we can do at the very beginning, that kind of level set this, I always liked to source this out. The end of our discovery call. Hey, Nick clients like you, they're trying to solve this problem. I just want to go check you are we in the same galaxy? I'm not asking you to say yes and sign that check right now. I just wanna make sure right. And it's that radical candor that we go back to and I have established that social contract with nick now where I've given him the opportunity to get out if he doesn't want to and we, once, once he says yes, you know like hey obviously we need to do some due diligence and all that stuff. But yeah, I think that's that's in line now we know I'm not gonna get blindsided later. That's kind of a hole. That was a lot of stuff. But but I would definitely make sure that you guys up front just level set the conversation and two um don't defend your price, don't defend your product cause hey, it sounds like you guys don't see enough value in this solution and now let's reset all the reasons why we're talking all the things that we've done getting to this point. How can you and I work together against this problem? Is it too expensive because you don't see value or is it you can't sign off on this or is it you don't have a budget? Let's dig into that. My my typical response on the price thing. So let's say nick quick for that. Sorry I sorry to cut you off. I want to just there's something that Colby does a lot that's ingrained in the culture that I just want to highlight before you step in nick um folks that I've talked to about what they call it customer voice. So like one thing that Colby, you did a lot nick you did this too is you say people like you when they want a solution like this or when they want to fix a problem like this tend to spend X amount of dollars with us. You're speaking from the point of view of the customer, You aren't just saying it costs this. People like you that want to accomplish this or fix this type of problem or whatever it might be, tend to do this and I just want to stress the importance of that. That is a framework that you can use throughout the entire outbound and selling process. That's super important. So that was a great call out. I love the way that you describe that, because now I'm going to feel that I think that's a really smart way to be articulating it. You're never just saying I'm a salesperson and I'm dictating you what your experience should be. It's like other folks like you have had similar experiences. So I think that's smart. Um what I was gonna say about, okay, let's say I pull up, I'm on the zoom call with the customer and I'm going over pricing, right? And I present my proposal, I pull it up, I've got my best t shirt on, maybe even wearing a college shirt pricing is delivered and the customer hits me with. We can't make that work. I'm seeing a lot of stuff in the chat about how people respond to that, that objection. And my belief with objections is that you have to seek first to understand before, trying to be understood, seek to really understand that objection before trying to overcome it. Now I want to go back to that scenario where you had your best shirt on, you prepared the proposal? You shared your screen, the customers there and hit you in the face with we can't make that work when you get that tough objection or resistance from the customer, most people's brains like shut off for a second might include it. And so the way that I um I respond to any objection, but in this particular scenario is one I have a stock phrase that I use to sort of recalibrate myself. Some people call it the idea of the ledge, it's the idea that I respond with something like I say got it. I always respond and they got it. And what that does is it gives me a second sort of like re anchor myself while my brain's freaking out for a second. So I say got it. And what I do is we'll use another chris bosses um Here I mirror what they said say got it sounds like you can't make that pricing work. And then what I do is I ask them a question about what they said to help me better understand where it is. And so I might just say something like got it, it sounds like you can't make that pricing work, like was there a particular element that wasn't right for you? And what I'm trying to do here is understand like when somebody says we can't make that work? I have no idea what they're actually talking about. Are they talking about the dollar figure? Are they talking about the billing terms? Are they talking about? Oh they saw something in the demo that they liked that wasn't in the proposal offering that I gave them. I cannot overcome their objection in this scenario until I understand what their concern is. I closed the sponsorship deal on my podcast once where like they gave me the stuff objection and it turned out all we had to do was like delay the billing terms a month and I got the deal done and I'm like, well that was easy. So until you tried to like be like, don't try to beat the objection until you really actually understand it. And if the customer has a legitimate concern which like concern and objection are both the same thing. Concern and objection are both the same thing. Like they want that concern to be explored, they want to feel important. That's usually how I'll handle the pricing objection is first understand before I try to beat it down because there's so many communications of what that objection could actually be. Yeah, I don't know if you guys feel or pay attention to physical cues that your body gives when you get objections or just threw out a sales call, but I pay a lot of attention. Maybe it's something by going through therapy is that when I get an objection and hey, this, this price is just too high Jason. I immediately feel pressure in my forehead. The same type of pressure I feel when I'm really anxious, you know, so I love that. Got it that recalibrate you, give yourself a couple of seconds to, you know, if you got hit by something or you bumped into something when you're walking, like he was just like, there's a stunt factor that happens to your body where you're just like, okay, I just hit my head on the side of the door frame. You know, let me give myself a couple of seconds here to recover. I like that you give yourself that space and both of you talked about, what are they objecting to because price, that could mean so many different things. Right? You guys mentioned payment terms, it could mean the total amount, it could be, we looked into a competitor and we feel like we're just getting more bang for our buck and maybe they even want to spend more money with the competitor. I just feel like they're getting more, It's rarely let me know what you guys think of this too. I feel like pricing objections are really them really not having the budget. Like we don't have the budget. I feel it's like a thing you say to someone no different than if I was shopping for something at the mall and I didn't want to really interact with the sales person. I just didn't want it to be like, oh I'm just looking I'm not interested or hey I gotta go talk to my wife and she doesn't allow me to purchase stuff like this without talking to her. It feels like an excuse to say we don't have the budget. What do you guys think? What's your, what's your take on that? I think it depends where in the sales cycle that comes up, right? If it comes up in that gut check conversation then that's probably legitimate and you can totally explore that and say hey there's there's alternative methods of delivery, there's you know um we can crawl walk, run like however you want to do that zoom info has a very strong like land and expand um culture. So like we just want the logo right? We still behave like we are a startup because we know that once you're in like we have so much more value we can provide. You don't need to take the whole grand slam or you know whatever at the beginning you can just get on base and we're cool with that. We want to help you figure that out. We're gonna get the most bang for your buck. But if that comes in, you know, hey I don't have a budget then if that's at the end that's a, that's definitely a cop out. Um Most of the time for most organizations unless you're dealing with, you know really really small organizations. Budgets are made up right? Like they are fluid you can borrow, you can do all kinds of stuff, you can mess with payment terms. Um But that's telling me when I hear that that we haven't justified the outlay of capital from an R. Y. Perspective or we haven't made them feel the pain that they're in there talking to us for some reason. Have they felt that pain for? Are they legitimately wasting their own time? There are very few people out there that knowingly waste their own time. Like we joke about tire kickers and stuff like that. Those are the people that will take a demo and then you'll never hear from them. They're not the people that are there at the end of the conversation. Um Well you know you, I've heard you said this a couple times called me. I like the idea of like often times if the customer actually understands the value of what you can do, you're like the price to value ratio is so in their favor they have to be like clueless not to buy your thing. And I think that's true for like pretty much everybody on this webinar if you work for a legitimate business, if the customer actually understood all of the value of what you do relative to your price, they sign instantly. And a lot of times like the sales process is the um communicating of that value through a series of conversations and so if you get to the end and they're like, and you can tell that they, they just don't, they don't see the value in the thing relative to the price back to what we said in the beginning, you should call that out. And one of the things I heard you say earlier, Colby was an idea of like, I might just be one of those super sensitive sales people, I'm getting the sense that like you might be a little distracted, like you're sort of throwing yourself under the bus a little bit where it's like, I'm a sensitive sales guy. Like did I get something wrong here? I do the same thing here, if I get to the end of the sales process and they're like, hey, like we don't like this is this pricing isn't gonna work, it's too expensive and you can tell it's because you haven't shown enough value in the sales process, you should call that out and throw yourself under the bus and basically say, you know what, it sounds like I've done a really crummy job articulating the value of X, yep, I'm wondering like, you know, usually when I'm working with folks like you and like if you can call out like the segment vertical that they're in. Like usually when I'm working with insurance defense law firms or intellectual property law firms. X. Feature is actually one of the biggest things that they're excited about and I mean it's sort of clear to me like I did a really really poor job like articulating how that could help you solve. Why problem that you said you had I guess would you be And I can show you exactly how I think it will solve your problem with lead routing right? Like whatever you wanna call it like and what I'm doing here is I'm reorienting around like look I want to win the deal and I have no ego around like I don't need to be the salesperson who nailed it every single time. Like sounds like I did a really crappy job with this. Like would you be willing to give me another app app because I really believe this thing can help you. I love that. I love that I'm pricing Colby. I wanted to ask you about was R. O. I. Because you commented on the chat about R. O. I. Can you. So I think there's sort of to like our lives are really nebulous concepts and it depends a little bit on what you sell, right? So take this with a grain of salt. Like if you're selling something to a CFO or um you know somebody like that um you really need to understand who your buyer types are. Um you should have. You know larger organizations, they'll probably have this stuff mapped out for you already. But if it hasn't been done um sit with your leaders and do that, Think about what they care about who you're selling to and how you can kind of position that way if you're selling to like a finance or CFO person. Yeah. Dude, R. O. Y. Needs to be, it's gotta be numbers. It's gotta be value driven. It just is one of those, but take something that's a little bit more nebulous like call recording conversation intelligence or chorus and you know, I don't want to pitch hard on this. It's not what I'm doing here, but it's it's a good example. We can increase win rates. We can uh you know, drive faster sales cycle, we can increase a CV all kinds of stuff. But ultimately a lot of the things and a lot of the value that you get from chorus is subjective and it is hard to quantify what's the value of not having to take notes on an account and guarantee relationship continuity with your customers. Well, it's pretty hard to quantify that. You can back into it a couple of different ways. What you need to do is tie it back to the paint. That's your are like conversation in the where there's something that's a little bit more subjective, figure out what's not working now. Why are we talking in the first place and remind them of that and hit them over the head with it every time you present pricing every time you talk about cost for anything? Hey, remember how much that hurts, here's what we're doing here is how we're gonna fix it and make sure that they're comfortable justifying that, especially if you're talking to somebody who's then gonna have to go sell that in turn. Yeah, most of the big deals that I have one when I'm interacting with the VP of sales, they've never asked me for an R. O. I, what do you think the R. O. I will be of this Jason? They never have asked me for that a single time. Um, okay, I want to shift gears you guys because we're I want to get through a couple more objections. This is great. I feel like we could do a masterclass just on pricing, you know, for an hour, Why change I think is another really big one. And a lot of people brought in a lot of stuff there, but essentially why do something different from what I'm doing right now? I don't know what the stats already forget. But most of the deals that we don't win, the person doesn't do anything. They don't go with our competitors, They do nothing. You know? So what do you think about this? Why change peace and I'll kick this your way nick first. How do you think about and backtrack into that objection of, you know, we're going to think about it, we're not quite sure, I think what we're doing right now is okay we're happy with our current provider all of the stuff that is not changing at all from status quo. How do you think about that? So I'm of the belief that when somebody articulates something, when they actually say something out loud, it has greater relative importance in their mind and in their life. So if I can get the customer to articulate their frustration with the problem that we solve that has a greater relative importance importance for them. And so I think most folks are familiar with like the the the quote, like, you know, people buy for emotional reasons and then back it up with logical reasons and I believe that quote to be true. And so my goal when I'm doing discovery with the customer is I want to understand the emotion behind why they're looking to change in the first place, why we're even talking in the first place. Because if I can get them to articulate the emotional frustration that they are dealing with or the emotional pain that they're dealing with, it has a greater relative importance in their mind, which makes them more likely to want to solve said problems. And I understand that more. I'm not just operating assuming that I understand the emotional state. They're like, I hear a lot of sales advice is like understand what this means to them personally, not just the business and like, I don't think you can do that unless you can understand the emotional side of things often the way that I'll illicit that information is let's say we're on first discovery call right? I might say something like, you know, I can't imagine that you woke up this morning and said, you know what, I need to hit that requested demo button for next time tracking software I guess could you tell me about the time when you realized that this was actually a problem? What I'm doing here is I'm saying can you tell me about the time when you realize this verse was a problem? And what I'll often get in response here is the person will tell me a story about the moment that they had to stay up until two am doing their time sheets and it was brutal and they hated it and they never want to have to sleep under their desk at the office again. Well, that's really, really compelling. Now I can lean on that the rest of my sales process. Like Colby, you talked about earlier, like going back to like the problem or the pain like This is all about keeping you from having to sleep under your desk and stay up till two am doing your time sheets. And so the idea is, I think a lot of, a lot of folks have heard the idea that stories sell and we get taught that as salespeople that oh we should be selling in stories. And I think a lot of sales people take that as, oh, I need to tell more stories about my thing and my customers and how we help customers like, and that's true. But the inverse is also true when the customer tells you a story that is often the most powerful discovery that you could possibly do. So I'll lean on that. Um, I have some other ideas, but I just talked to you guys a lot. So I'm gonna shut up for a second. I love that you've talked about that a lot in your content. Nick, get the customer to share a story. Customer stories are important, but getting them to share a story very powerful storytelling is just such a big part too. Yeah, there's actually been a lot of neuroscience and studies behind that. People buy based on emotion to justify with logic, you know, So I think we tend to attack objections with logic a lot. You know, the other thing that's, yeah, I was just going to say and nick, I, I really agree with that. One of the other things too is there's been a ton of studies and I was actually just looking for it, but I couldn't find one that, that was, you know, easy to reference. Fear is a motivation, right? So if we get to that point of, you know, the objection being, uh, yeah, I'm just not gonna do anything, right? They were in the status quo. Um, fear. People are more motivated by the fear of loss than the ability to gain. So if you can reframe that conversation from like, hey, here's all the things that you're gonna get right. If you don't respond to that story that nick just talked about your back pocket move can be something like, hey, like here's all the things that's going to happen if you don't do this right? We have a story. Um, you know, zoom info, It's having strong data and the ability to actually, you know, use and access your market. That's table stakes guys like you, all of your competitors, they're doing exactly this. And if you're not doing that, you're falling behind now, that means something probably for something everybody else, but help them think about what doing nothing actually does. I love seeing that in the comments a lot of the times, um, you know, you'll talk to your sales manager, your VP and they're like, oh, that's easy. Just, you know, tell them, you know what, why, what's going to happen if you don't do it. Well, sometimes they can't like actually extrapolate that your buyer because they may not have fully understood the problem that they have in the first place. So if you can help them understand that you can show them that you've helped other people that there's other people doing this a lot of the times, I'll say something like, hey, you know, I totally understand that budgets are limited. Times limited. But at zoom info and they've all seen that this is table stakes and they're all doing this and you're gonna fall behind and I want to help you do that. So let me show you how easy it is to do that. Hey Jason, you said something I thought really insightful, so insightful that I wrote it on this piece of paper, you said that most sales people will tend to attack objections with logic I think when sales people move from being a complete novice as a seller to like being an intermediate seller, let's call it. And they're like, they started to get their legs under them. Maybe they've attended a webinar or two like this and they're like, all right, they've got their objection handling battle card for their, their common objections. Most sales people like they get so far fixated on, okay, I know how to handle this problem. I know how to answer the question in class. Like I know the solution to this that they jump to attacking the objection with what they know the right answer is and unfortunately sales is not as black and white as a math problem in high school geometry often times making the other person feel heard and understood and then doing what Colby has done, saying, hey, I've done some understanding of your thing. I hear what you're saying. We've had other folks who have had that concern. can like attack the objection a little bit, but first you need to make them feel like you actually have heard it and understood it. If you're like, oh, I heard your objection, let me handle this. You have lost because the person is like, well of course this salesperson is going to handle my objection or have a rebuttal to my concern. That's their job to sell this thing. But if you can actually be thoughtful and make it, it does sound like relationship advice chris you should do that. I mean, this is this is personal relations with other human beings. This is the science of communication right here. So yeah, this should work in your personal relationships as well. But if you are seeking to respond instead of seeking to understand, I don't care if you have every word on your objection handling battle card memorized because you're gonna lose. You've got to make them understood. First handle the emotional side of the objection and then work on the logical side. I want to add something to that. Just from the, the emotional side of it is for those of you who with the radical candor conversation, maybe you're just not that type of seller, right? You're going to find a way that that makes this your own. Like don't try and do exactly the way that I do or nick does or anybody else because it's gonna, it will feel weird and it will feel inauthentic. But I think one of the big things and I think a common thread here is like were people right? I'm going to go watch the Celtics game. I'm going to go do some stuff outside of work. This is just one part of what I'm doing today and nick's gonna go do his thing and Jason's gonna go do his thing. But if you can remember that your buyer on the other side of the table is also a human that is emotional, that probably has some other stuff going on and their job is not to buy your product. Their job is to do something else. So if we can help people, um, you know, break that down and then we can get back to it. Hey, it's you and I against the problem. We build that random radical candor. The empathy and the whole conversation is way less tense. But if you immediately start defending, then it's an adversarial conversation. The other thing that I just add is like, you don't have to answer or address an objection right away or at all. Like just because they asked the question where they throw that objection up doesn't mean you have to address it. You can address it later. Hey, that's a really good question. Um, let's come back to that do that once or twice you're going to feel like you have so much more power in the conversation, then you can come back to it. One thing I wanna, I love that Kobe. One thing I want to mention to you is that oftentimes what can be forgotten through the sales process is to not really go in depth with how much work is required for implementation. I get this objection a lot. Sometimes people bringing me in for a training, what they don't realize is that for your leaders, I need two hours of your time prior to the training and only one of those is an hour launch call. The other hour is just deficient around documents and just giving them to me so I can take a look at it. There's sometimes this perception that it's gonna be hours, dozens of hours from them and their team and their resources to get me what I need for a training and sometimes that's just too much effort for someone to want to put in. So talking about implementation, what that looks like, how you make it easy for them to use your solution is another important thing to make sure that you talk about. Well, you just mentioned that if they don't have clarity of the information, if there's uncertainty and you haven't talked about what the implementation work looks like. They imagine the worst case scenario, right? Like most people when they don't, when there's ambiguity around something, there's uncertainty, uncertainty equals fear, right? Like it's like if you're a caveman or cave woman and you approach a new cave, you might be scared to go in that cave because you have no idea if there's a saber toothed tiger in there or if there might be some food and so most people are inclined to, I don't want to go there because I don't know what's in that cave. But when you tell them, hey, this is what implementation actually literally say. You know, most folks that I talked to have concerns or hesitations around what the implementation experience is going to look like. I want to make sure that, you know, if that's a conversation you'd like to have to understand exactly what your time commitment should look like. I'm happy to set you up with our implementation team and they And so the idea here is again, I'm looking for trouble. I have that concern. It wakes me up in the middle of the night. Oh, shoot is the, is the intensive implementation experience going to scare them away because it might be an intensive implementation experience.